Iraqis Doubt Move Towards Democracy

[Rick]

IRAQ
Iraqis Doubt Move Towards Democracy
from Financial Times on Monday, July 26, 2004
Article ID: D150529
One of Iraq's first steps towards representative democracy was greeted with widespread scepticism yesterday. Baghdad notables chose delegates to this month's 1,000-strong national conference through a process few understood, and which many feared gave undue influence to members of the former US-backed governing council. The procedure seemed simple: a caucus of several hundred dignitaries assembled in Baghdad University to choose 40 representatives (including 10 women) for the city's Al-Rusafa district, via a simple paper ballot.
2004 by The Financial Times. All Rights Reserved

[RogerL]

This doesn't bode well. At least there seems to be plenty of candidates who want to run. Let's hope there's less controversy in the January elections, which is the important one.

[minigirl]

We've been a democracy for over 200 years and WE still don't have much trust in the process. (dangling chads? lol) It's too bad - they need to have some faith in process -- they've had much to be suspicious of - can't blame them.

[Geoff]

They should be suspicious. Something would be wrong if they weren't. There are many intelligent, educated people in Iraq. I'm sure many of them, while thankful for their new-found "freedom", also look at how hopelessly corrupt and constitutionally illiterate the US government is, and have some reservations. Some of these Iraqis see the handwriting on the wall. They know that the handover of power to the Iraqi government is nothing more than window dressing, and that the new government will be taking its marching orders from the IMF and World Bank. These groups are glorified investor clubs, whose mega-corporate sponsors are primarily US-based. They will wield the true power. They will be behind the scenes pulling the strings and pushing the buttons. The Federal Reserve Bank operates this way here in the US. People just don't know it, because most of us can't be bothered with educating ourselves.
America was founded as a constitutionally-limited Republic, not as a democracy. There are big differences between these two. Unfortunately, America now functions as more of democracy. And that does not bode well for our future.

[minigirl]

They should be suspicious. Something would be wrong if they weren't. There are many intelligent, educated people in Iraq. I'm sure many of them, while thankful for their new-found "freedom", also look at how hopelessly corrupt and constitutionally illiterate the US government is, and have some reservations. Some of these Iraqis see the handwriting on the wall. They know that the handover of power to the Iraqi government is nothing more than window dressing, and that the new government will be taking its marching orders from the IMF and World Bank. These groups are glorified investor clubs, whose mega-corporate sponsors are primarily US-based. They will wield the true power. They will be behind the scenes pulling the strings and pushing the buttons. The Federal Reserve Bank operates this way here in the US. People just don't know it, because most of us can't be bothered with educating ourselves.
America was founded as a constitutionally-limited Republic, not as a democracy. There are big differences between these two. Unfortunately, America now functions as more of democracy. And that does not bode well for our future.


Okay I WILL stop posting if people here can't resist the urge to point out my apparent ignorance. lol :rolleye03

- My point was that they're totally justified in being suspicious, and I'm sorry about my seemingly errant use of the word democracy.
- I'll get right on boning up on the FRB, right after I get off my graveyard 12 hour shift, get a few hours of sleep and 'finish' taking care of 3 little kids. Then I'll "bother" to get me an edukashun. LOL :drunk:

Jacquie

[Blake]

were bending the no politics chat again wheather its the election in u.s or iraq its still politics lets try and keep it in pm's thankyou.I have to disagree, Tone. I think this is more a discussion about the structure & history of the U.S. government, not political parties. :)

[heather]

LMAO...It's like my Home Owners Association...The way the moderators jump in..I'm not saying there wrong ..Just laughing at the comparison (self amussment)

[CAP]

In a representative republic the corrupt entities that exist cannot obtain power without assitance. The voter. Regardless of motivation (and political opinion) it is voting population that must accept responsibility.

When the thirteen colonies were still a part of England,
Professor Alexander Tyler, a Scottish historian, wrote
about the fall of the Athenian republic over 2000 years
earlier. He said:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent
form of government. It can only exist until the
voters discover that they can vote themselves
money from the public treasury. From that
moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidates promising the most money from the
public treasury, with the result that a
democracy always collapses over loose fiscal
policy followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world’s great
civilizations has been 200 years. These nations
have progressed through the following
sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from
spiritual faith to great courage, from courage
to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from
abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to
complacency, from complacency to apathy,
from apathy to dependency, from dependency
back to bondage.

In my opinion we are currently somewhere between selfishness and dependency. The only solution to the trend is a better educated populus. No offense to any teachers out there, but we are turning out fewer and fewer intellectually competent people every year. Remember, the evil corporations are made up of people. ;)

[MJI Capital]

In a representative republic the corrupt entities that exist cannot obtain power without assitance. The voter. Regardless of motivation (and political opinion) it is voting population that must accept responsibility.

When the thirteen colonies were still a part of England,
Professor Alexander Tyler, a Scottish historian, wrote
about the fall of the Athenian republic over 2000 years
earlier. He said:

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent
form of government. It can only exist until the
voters discover that they can vote themselves
money from the public treasury. From that
moment on, the majority always votes for the
candidates promising the most money from the
public treasury, with the result that a
democracy always collapses over loose fiscal
policy followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world’s great
civilizations has been 200 years. These nations
have progressed through the following
sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from
spiritual faith to great courage, from courage
to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from
abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to
complacency, from complacency to apathy,
from apathy to dependency, from dependency
back to bondage.

In my opinion we are currently somewhere between selfishness and dependency. The only solution to the trend is a better educated populus. No offense to any teachers out there, but we are turning out fewer and fewer intellectually competent people every year. Remember, the evil corporations are made up of people. ;)

I am quite active politically and I always mention this....you hit the nail right on the head. I always mention the need for better education, not this watered down liberal BS kids get today. I'm glad I'm not the only one that recognizes this.

[Geoff]

In a representative republic the corrupt entities that exist cannot obtain power without assitance. The voter. Regardless of motivation (and political opinion) it is voting population that must accept responsibility.


Couldn't agree more. Tyler's quote has long been one of my favorites. It's concise, powerful, and proven by history. Benjamin Franklin was once asked what form of government the Founders had adopted. He replied, "A Republic...if you can keep it". He knew, as did the other revolutionaries, exactly what the deal was.
I think it's important to understand history and America's experiment in self-government. It can help us to read between the lines of what is going on in Iraq (for better or worse), and can help us to see what her future may hold. To me, it's impossible to speculate on Iraq's economy, where the Dinar will go and so on without considering the politics involved. It is all political.

[MJI Capital]

It is all political.

Indeed. That is why more people need to get involved. Even if its just a simple email or phone call, let your elected politicians know what is on your mind.

[Geoff]

I always mention the need for better education, not this watered down liberal BS kids get today. I'm glad I'm not the only one that recognizes this.

Most of us would view government-controlled education in the former USSR with much suspicion, and for very good reason. Yet, we have an almost identical system in place here in the US, and nobody bats an eyelash.

"Do we really think that a government-dominated education is going to produce citizens capable of dominating their government, as the education of a truly vigilant self-governing people requires?"

-- Alan Keyes

[CAP]

MJI Capital and Geoff,

You guys were up too late for my old bones. Besides, I'm leaving on vacation tomorrow with a 15 hour drive with two small kids, two dogs, and a beautiful wife- so I need all of the rest I can get!

I thoroughly enjoy this type of conversation. Like Blake said in an earlier post to Tony, this is not political it is a discussion concerning the fabric of our constitution and society. For several generations activist judges have interpreted the constitution to include, or exclude, articles based upon their personal political ideologies. The fault for these renegades, left wing or right wing, lies within the halls of congress. Congressional weakness must fall at the feet of the voters, for the reasons we all agreed upon.

Unless we as a nation address the structural problems within our educational system and cease to simply throw money at the perceived issues for political gain- we will continue the gradual decline of our society. The population will continue to migrate into nothing more than sheep, because the majority will not have the intelligence to discern the greedy, or evil, intentions of the power mongers who seek to control them.

Progress is impeded by the teachers union, who in turn whore themselves to politicians who agree to use them to incrementally indoctinate generations with their political ideology. Teachers- don't get mad at me for telling the truth. Get active with your union if you don't agree with the direction they are taking you.

I wouldn't mind having a beer or ten with you guys, while we decide how to solve the problem of the world........

[Geoff]

Hey Cap, you're welcome in Nashville anytime. Since you're in Wisconsin, you'll be required to bring the brats and cheese. I've got the beer and BBQ covered ;)

[CAP]

BBQ and cheese? Guess I'll hang out by the keg. Just like old times.....

[minigirl]

BBQ and cheese? Guess I'll hang out by the keg. Just like old times.....

Why wouldn't you bring the beer too CAP??? Bring him some Leinie's! YUM! :)

ok, i admit it. i love a Wisconsin beer. :shhh:

[Stalyn]

http://electroniciraq.net/news/1588.shtml

Article speaks for itself.

[minigirl]

http://electroniciraq.net/news/1588.shtml

Article speaks for itself.

Thank you Stalyn - very interesting reading!

[fsm75]

http://electroniciraq.net/news/1588.shtml

Article speaks for itself.
Stalyn: You say the article speaks for itself. What does it say to you. It is contradictory to me. First he said that the US made an error in dissolving the Iraqi Army. Then he says that the police force was wrought with criminals. What is to say that the Army was not as well? If it was not for the Americans he would not be called the Interior Ministry Spokesperson.

[BRYAN]

http://electroniciraq.net/news/1588.shtml

Article speaks for itself.
Good information . I was concerned about the statement about conterfits ( is ther any way to know which currency is being forged the most ??? ) That would be great for all of us if it opened at the $1 = .29 IQD . But we will see - time stops for no one .

[Stalyn]

http://www.mees.com/postedarticles/oped/a47n25d01.htm

Very informative.

[Psycho for Dinar]

Why wouldn't you bring the beer too CAP??? Bring him some Leinie's! YUM! :)

ok, i admit it. i love a Wisconsin beer. :shhh:


lol...We used to call that stuff Squaw Pi_ _!! FREE BEER at the plant!!!

[minigirl]

If it was not for the Americans he would not be called the Interior Ministry Spokesperson.


I think they should bring back "Baghdad Bob"! :p