Blackwater fight tests US view of Iraq

[shevaub]

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=194684
A red-faced US government pleaded for patience from Baghdad as a private US security firm's role in a deadly gun battle tested US claims that war-torn Iraq is a sovereign nation.
The White House, the Pentagon, and the State Department on Tuesday grappled with how to curb the damage from Sunday's clash in which Blackwater contractors apparently killed civilians, fueling anti-US sentiments in Iraq.
A top Iraqi judge has said Blackwater could face trial over the incident, in which some of its guards, who were escorting US embassy officials, opened fire in a Baghdad neighborhood, killing 10 people and wounding 13.
But Blackwater denies any wrongdoing, and US legal experts said the contractors may be immune from prosecution under a measure conceived by the US-led Coalition Provisional Authority not long after the March 2003 invasion.
As concern mounted over potential backlash against foreigners in the wake of the killings, the US embassy suspended all ground travel for its diplomats and civilian officials across Iraq, limiting their movements to inside Baghdad's heavily fortified Green Zone.
And, US officials said, it was unclear whether -- or if -- any US nationals involved would be tried under US or Iraqi law over the incident, which Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki has angrily branded a "criminal" act.
"That bit of it will come at the very end" of a probe into what happened, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said one day after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned Maliki to ease his concerns.
"You would have to have a precise set of facts in order to be able to determine the various applicable legal authorities and whether or not ... there were any laws that were broken," said McCormack.
"We want to be as open and transparent and cooperative as we possibly can with the Iraqis. I think that this is going to be a process that unfolds over a period of time. I can't tell you how long," he said.
The State Department and Iraq's government were conducting parallel probes into the incident, but "look for those investigations to merge and to have a joint investigation pretty soon," a US official said on condition of anonymity.
McCormack declined to say whether Washington would make any US nationals available for questioning by Iraqi officials, declined to say how many Blackwater employees operate in Iraq, and said the convoy had been provoked.
"The basic fact is that there was an attack on the convoy," and escorts are trained to "respond with graduated use of force, proportionate to the kind of fire and attack that they're coming under," he said.
"We have not been informed that Blackwater's, quote, 'license,' has been lifted, suspended or terminated," McCormack said one day after Iraqi officials said their interior ministry had done so.
Iraq's government said it will review the operations of all security firms working in the war-ravaged country, and the Pentagon said it was taking a hard look into the US military's use of private security contractors in Iraq.
A spokesman for the US Central Command said 7,300 private security personnel were in Iraq under contract to the US Defense Department as of July 5. Overall, there were 137,000 people in Iraq on Defense Department contracts.
Those figures do not include private security personnel or others under contract to the State Department -- like the Blackwater contractors in the shooting -- or other US agencies.
The dispute came 17 months after US President George W. Bush was unable to answer a graduate student who asked what laws apply to the thousands of independent contractors working in Iraq.
Paul Williams, a former State Department lawyer who has advised Iraq's government, said that the contractors were immune from Iraqi prosecution. Iraq could repeal that measure for the future but it would not apply to Sunday's incident.
But Michael Newton, a professor of international law at Vanderbilt University, said that the contractors' country of origin -- it was not clear whether they were US nationals -- could waive immunity protection.
"The immunity is negotiated by and on behalf of the state, the occupying power. So the sending state could waive that immunity and allow Iraqi courts to prosecute," he said.

[lance]

I just don't hear people standing up for these guys. These are paid professionals protecting our diplomats who were being mortared, yeah mortared. How many of you have been mortared, yeah I said mortared? I have been more than a couple of times and things get fuzzy and scary real quick. You can loose your orientation and really you would give ANYTHING for it to stop. If it were your job to make it stop then there are no rules. NO RULES. If you can help from hurting the innocent that is so much the better. When the mortars started landing the people should have been leaving, hitting the deck, they know where the debris hits when those things go off. After the first one hit the should have been elbows and as-----s out of there. These Black Water Operatives completed the mission with 100% success if you hadn't noticed. Not one diplomat was injured much less killed. This is what hero's do. War is not a white coat affair. You pull Black Waters License and who is gonna do their job? You got it someone less trained and less professional.
Gonna tell you a short story about Black Water, they were assigned to protect a small outpost. Three Black Water men, guarding this compound of civilians. Compound comes under attack by locals estimated as many as 200. Black Water radioed in for support they called in for more ammo, did not ask for additional men. The battle raged for six hours before the military arrived. When one of the civilians was interviewed after the fact, he said " they were utterly confident and knew why they were there". Think I am gonna need to hear our guys side of the story ya know.

Oh here is some info.

According to the official in Washington, most of the Iraqi witnesses say Blackwater guards fired on a car which had acted suspiciously. The car then burst into flames and exploded, according to the Iraqi witnesses.

American witnesses maintain they were taking fire before the car approached, and fired back. Some insist the car exploded without being hit, the official said. That version suggests it was a car bomb.

much more at http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hmrLJfBttBSuJiT0K5tiQvlB47dA

[dinardo]

dude. take a pill. I had the "pleasure" of blackwater's *protection* for more than a year, and let me say this, I've never seen a bigger bunch of young gun cowboys in my life. they were as careless as wreckless....you used the word 'professional'.....yeah right. look up Armor group if you want the correct definition. Alot of these guys are retreads from as late as 04....(kids with guns and no rules) As late as 3 weeks ago I was flying home from the mideast and I could ID every blackwater kid on the flight......bassackward ballcap, gotee and sunglasses?? (wtfo) overseaes flights usually means shades down....what the hell is with the sunglasses?? I know it puts Baghdad in a bind....(more than most after 2 tours as a contractor) but seriously, I think they are much better off for it. I can tell you many story's to further explain my opinion. man I was SO unimpressed with those guys:no2: .

[lance]

dude. take a pill. I had the "pleasure" of blackwater's *protection* for more than a year, and let me say this, I've never seen a bigger bunch of young gun cowboys in my life. they were as careless as wreckless....you used the word 'professional'.....yeah right. look up Armor group if you want the correct definition. Alot of these guys are retreads from as late as 04....(kids with guns and no rules) As late as 3 weeks ago I was flying home from the mideast and I could ID every blackwater kid on the flight......bassackward ballcap, gotee and sunglasses?? (wtfo) overseaes flights usually means shades down....what the hell is with the sunglasses?? I know it puts Baghdad in a bind....(more than most after 2 tours as a contractor) but seriously, I think they are much better off for it. I can tell you many story's to further explain my opinion. man I was SO unimpressed with those guys:no2: .

Fair enough we had different support is all I can say. I appreciate you sharing your experience. You got back ok did you? Me to! I kinda like my boxers, football teams and force protection cocky that way. Like I said thanks for sharing. As for the pill I will pass not really my style.

[BugmanIraq]

I'd have to side with the BW folks on this one. Not going to get a thumbs up from the Iraqis regardless of anything positive we do for them.

Iraq is a craphole where everyone and everything is working against you so I'd say do what you have to do to survive the moment because you surely don't want your family to see you strung up and burning on a bridge.

[lance]

I'd have to side with the BW folks on this one. Not going to get a thumbs up from the Iraqis regardless of anything positive we do for them.

Iraq is a craphole where everyone and everything is working against you so I'd say do what you have to do to survive the moment because you surely don't want your family to see you strung up and burning on a bridge.

I am gonna come right out and say thank you. It is really that simple.

Live or Die, this isn't some sort of adventure or Safari.

[Waiting in WI]

I'd have to side with the BW folks on this one. Not going to get a thumbs up from the Iraqis regardless of anything positive we do for them.

Iraq is a craphole where everyone and everything is working against you so I'd say do what you have to do to survive the moment because you surely don't want your family to see you strung up and burning on a bridge.

Don't think we will ever see that again.

If, God forbid, any of these guys gets into a capture situation, doubt they will stick around long enough to be strung up or dragged. Won't give the enemy the pleasure. They will go out with a hell of a fight taking as many bad guys with them as possible.

IMO

[Howler]

I just don't hear people standing up for these guys. These are paid professionals protecting our diplomats who were being mortared, yeah mortared. How many of you have been mortared, yeah I said mortared? I have been more than a couple of times and things get fuzzy and scary real quick. You can loose your orientation and really you would give ANYTHING for it to stop. If it were your job to make it stop then there are no rules. NO RULES. If you can help from hurting the innocent that is so much the better. When the mortars started landing the people should have been leaving, hitting the deck, they know where the debris hits when those things go off. After the first one hit the should have been elbows and as-----s out of there. These Black Water Operatives completed the mission with 100% success if you hadn't noticed. Not one diplomat was injured much less killed. This is what hero's do. War is not a white coat affair. You pull Black Waters License and who is gonna do their job? You got it someone less trained and less professional.
Gonna tell you a short story about Black Water, they were assigned to protect a small outpost. Three Black Water men, guarding this compound of civilians. Compound comes under attack by locals estimated as many as 200. Black Water radioed in for support they called in for more ammo, did not ask for additional men. The battle raged for six hours before the military arrived. When one of the civilians was interviewed after the fact, he said " they were utterly confident and knew why they were there". Think I am gonna need to hear our guys side of the story ya know.

Oh here is some info.

According to the official in Washington, most of the Iraqi witnesses say Blackwater guards fired on a car which had acted suspiciously. The car then burst into flames and exploded, according to the Iraqi witnesses.

American witnesses maintain they were taking fire before the car approached, and fired back. Some insist the car exploded without being hit, the official said. That version suggests it was a car bomb.

much more at http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hmrLJfBttBSuJiT0K5tiQvlB47dA



Been there done that, bought the T-shirt!
(Seriously, Camp Anaconda was called Motarritaville in Stars and Stripes!, so the Haji shops started making t-shirts!!!)
Anyway, couldnt agree more Lance. These guys do a job most couldnt even fathom.
Only problem is, they never turn it off...Thus Dinardos post. That kind of arrogance is exactly what puts the Iraqis off.

[COACH JACK]

I just don't hear people standing up for these guys. These are paid professionals protecting our diplomats who were being mortared, yeah mortared. How many of you have been mortared, yeah I said mortared? I have been more than a couple of times and things get fuzzy and scary real quick. You can loose your orientation and really you would give ANYTHING for it to stop. If it were your job to make it stop then there are no rules. NO RULES. If you can help from hurting the innocent that is so much the better. When the mortars started landing the people should have been leaving, hitting the deck, they know where the debris hits when those things go off. After the first one hit the should have been elbows and as-----s out of there. These Black Water Operatives completed the mission with 100% success if you hadn't noticed. Not one diplomat was injured much less killed. This is what hero's do. War is not a white coat affair. You pull Black Waters License and who is gonna do their job? You got it someone less trained and less professional.
Gonna tell you a short story about Black Water, they were assigned to protect a small outpost. Three Black Water men, guarding this compound of civilians. Compound comes under attack by locals estimated as many as 200. Black Water radioed in for support they called in for more ammo, did not ask for additional men. The battle raged for six hours before the military arrived. When one of the civilians was interviewed after the fact, he said " they were utterly confident and knew why they were there". Think I am gonna need to hear our guys side of the story ya know.

Oh here is some info.

According to the official in Washington, most of the Iraqi witnesses say Blackwater guards fired on a car which had acted suspiciously. The car then burst into flames and exploded, according to the Iraqi witnesses.

American witnesses maintain they were taking fire before the car approached, and fired back. Some insist the car exploded without being hit, the official said. That version suggests it was a car bomb.

much more at http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hmrLJfBttBSuJiT0K5tiQvlB47dA
Totally with you Lance in their support. So many folks judge first, way before the complete facts are in. Glad to stand behind you in supporting our people fulfilling one of the toughest jobs possible.

[yunowu]

Looks like Blackwater is back in business in Baghdad !! :happy64: :happy64: The Iraqis just need a little reminder who is the boss !!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070921/wl_mideast_afp/iraq

[dinardo]

thanks Lance, I've been around a while and do appreciate your stature here.
(nothing but respect) I was probably one of the first contractor's on the ground (Aug. 03), therefore we had to make it up as we went. Drove the streets freely in my brand new 03 Tahoe even. I can only hope that BW changed their ways, especially after the bridge incident (I "escorted" one of the bodies back to the states coincedentally) . My guy's (BW) refused to wear armor while traveling (red zone) because they "didn't give a f**k".... are you kidding me? and you're here to ensure my safety??....and then the time they left ALL their weapons in the comm center with an 11 year old Iraqi that just happened to be watching TV at the time to go to chow (I took and hid their weapons to make my point).....man...I'm gettin riled again.....
Armor Group with the Gurkas....that was last summer....and man, .....talk about proffesional.......
jmho







Fair enough we had different support is all I can say. I appreciate you sharing your experience. You got back ok did you? Me to! I kinda like my boxers, football teams and force protection cocky that way. Like I said thanks for sharing. As for the pill I will pass not really my style.

[LakewayDaze!]

what the hell is with the sunglasses?

What's the problem with sunglasses?? If I am outdoors and the sun is shining, I have sunglasses on as well.

This is just like everything else in the world. If it involves people you have some good and some bad. I don't know the details so I am unable to give an honest opinion as to what happened and who was in the wrong. I do know that is a tough job that I have no interest in doing.

Anaconda=Mortarville?
Jan2004-Nov 2005 all day everyday!

Some didn't get the opportunity to go home and speak about it in a forum such as this. I am thankful that most did.

[shevaub]

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/focusoniraq/2007/September/focusoniraq_September150.xml&section=focusoniraq&col=
The US government is investigating whether military contractor Blackwater USA has been shipping unlicensed automatic weapons and military equipment to Iraq, a report said Saturday.
The report came as Blackwater was back on the streets of Baghdad on Friday, four days after being grounded over a fatal shooting incident that resulted in the deaths of 10 people.
The News & Observer newspaper, published in Raleigh, North Carolina, said two former Blackwater employees have pleaded guilty in Greenville to weapons charges and are cooperating with federal officials investigating Blackwater.
The contractor, which guards US embassy officials in Iraq, is based in the town of Moyock, North Carolina.
Two sources familiar with the investigation said that prosecutors are looking at whether Blackwater lacked permits for dozens of automatic weapons used at its training grounds in Moyock, the report said.
The investigation is also looking into whether Blackwater was shipping weapons, night-vision scopes, armor, gun kits and other military goods to Iraq without the required permits, according to the paper.
The weapons-smuggling investigation was mentioned in a letter sent Tuesday to State Department Inspector General Howard Krongard by Democratic Representative Henry Waxman, The News & Observer said.
The congressman charged that Krongard was impeding the investigation "into whether a large private security contractor working for the State Department was illegally smuggling weapons into Iraq."

[Howler]

thanks Lance, I've been around a while and do appreciate your stature here.
(nothing but respect) I was probably one of the first contractor's on the ground (Aug. 03), therefore we had to make it up as we went. Drove the streets freely in my brand new 03 Tahoe even. I can only hope that BW changed their ways, especially after the bridge incident (I "escorted" one of the bodies back to the states coincedentally) . My guy's (BW) refused to wear armor while traveling (red zone) because they "didn't give a f**k".... are you kidding me? and you're here to ensure my safety??....and then the time they left ALL their weapons in the comm center with an 11 year old Iraqi that just happened to be watching TV at the time to go to chow (I took and hid their weapons to make my point).....man...I'm gettin riled again.....
Armor Group with the Gurkas....that was last summer....and man, .....talk about proffesional.......
jmho

Do not mess with the Gurkas!!!! Very bad group of men.
Saw one lock and load on one of the Iraqi kids in the Aiport. (the ones that hassle you to carry your bag) I didnt see what the kid did, but he was very close to being shot point blank in the head.