U.S. snipers accused of 'baiting' Iraqis

[shevaub]

Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."
"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.
Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.
The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.
"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.
Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.
The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.
The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.
"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."
The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.
Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.
The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.
The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.
They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.

[millionairetobe71]

Hummm.....

I wonder why the media don't talk about those
insurgents snipers targeting innocent civilians...including women walking with their babies.....:wondering:

I shall say that media wants to find in the US troops reasons to talk about.....bunch of crap.... :swear:

MTB71

[Money4Nothin']

Seems like a good idea to me. Kinda like trolling. Good way to catch a fish.

[SEABEE CAN-DO]

something stinks here. The army or the soldiers.. killing anyone for picking up a item is not allowed. Only because you don't know who is who there... If you do know 100% he is bad then blast him..

[MettleOfMan]

something stinks here. The army or the soldiers.. killing anyone for picking up a item is not allowed. Only because you don't know who is who there... If you do know 100% he is bad then blast him..

This is a tough one indeed. One the one hand I can see setting up a sting operation and whacking the bad guys trying to steal weapons caches but this makes it sound as if they were simply dropping a fuse on the ground and shooting anyone who dared to pick it up. More than likely anyone who's never seen such a thing would pick it up out of curiosity. I would really like to be able to follow this one a bit closer to see what the actual boots to the ground operating procedures were. I'm absolutely certain we are reading a media biased account of things and will probably never know the truth.

[treswayz]

This probably has 2 sides indeed. The Muslim side of things and the boots on the ground. What the frick are we suppose to do with these who are packing 1000 pnds of explosives in culverts and laying down IED's every 10 minutes or shooting at us left and right.

Oh ya. Feel bad for the man in the dress.:bandit: I wonder why he is on the side of the road looking for something to pick up or......a place to set something down.

I wonder why the US military follows the Geneva convention and rules of engagement.....WHEN NO ONE ELSE FRICKEN DOES!!!! But hey, Go us...right..... we follow rules...we follow orders....were locked on and we come with Shock and AWWWW..

When your on the ground and your enemy is EXACTLY THE FRICKEN SAME as the ""INNOCENT BYSTANDERED"""!!!! Who is making sure to pick up his "Friends" AK so that Ali Baba here who got shot on the ground who just SNIPED out one of "OUR" own....looks like the innocent Bystandered and thats now the story to the press or whoever else comes along....

Swear to god...I can go on and on....and I will get more pissed....

Yes there are good things going on in Iraq.....but I work with Iraqis who do not even want to go home because the bad guy has now went to there house....threatened there family and friends.....we had 5 guys kidnapped while on there lil vacation.....4 guys were killed...and the 1 was tortured and killed ......AFTER ....he gave up more of the names of Iraqis who work with me......

Believe you, me...... would you pick up a piece of cord or go next to a 120 mortar round. that is just laying on the ground and looks like something you might want to pick up or use for later.......NO....


SUPPORT YOUR FRICKEN TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MettleOfMan]

Believe me I do support our troops but I also know that the boots on the ground soldier is ordered to engage in situations that would be questionable under not only the Geneva Convention but national and international law as well. In 1983 we were given very direct commands of 'you, one round, that man' as a means of effective crowd control. The difference now is that those giving those types of orders are doing it through semantics and small print so they can't be held accountable while the soldier who is actually engaging the enemy bears the burden of the task and the crime. Believe me you, there are cells that do not govern themselves by the Geneva Convention and we shroud that in secrecy even to our own Congress. I am well versed in psyops and all manner of war and I know hard tasks have to be done by hard men. I have written my congressman repeatedly with my suggestions of securing urban areas with no loss of American lives but apparently it doesn't fit into the scheme of things.

So to end, yes I support my troops more than you can imagine and I do it every single day... every day. I won't tell you what I do but I will tell you that I don't blindly accept that orders from on-high are always moral and accurate. There are those who have no business being in a position of authority and they have to be removed. You can't do that with a blind eye but on the same hand you do not sacrifice the troops for their commanders mistakes.

[Goes4ever]

Seems like a good idea to me. Kinda like trolling. Good way to catch a fish.

I agree :wink:

[millionairetobe71]

This probably has 2 sides indeed. The Muslim side of things and the boots on the ground. What the frick are we suppose to do with these who are packing 1000 pnds of explosives in culverts and laying down IED's every 10 minutes or shooting at us left and right.

Oh ya. Feel bad for the man in the dress.:bandit: I wonder why he is on the side of the road looking for something to pick up or......a place to set something down.

I wonder why the US military follows the Geneva convention and rules of engagement.....WHEN NO ONE ELSE FRICKEN DOES!!!! But hey, Go us...right..... we follow rules...we follow orders....were locked on and we come with Shock and AWWWW..

When your on the ground and your enemy is EXACTLY THE FRICKEN SAME as the ""INNOCENT BYSTANDERED"""!!!! Who is making sure to pick up his "Friends" AK so that Ali Baba here who got shot on the ground who just SNIPED out one of "OUR" own....looks like the innocent Bystandered and thats now the story to the press or whoever else comes along....

Swear to god...I can go on and on....and I will get more pissed....

Yes there are good things going on in Iraq.....but I work with Iraqis who do not even want to go home because the bad guy has now went to there house....threatened there family and friends.....we had 5 guys kidnapped while on there lil vacation.....4 guys were killed...and the 1 was tortured and killed ......AFTER ....he gave up more of the names of Iraqis who work with me......

Believe you, me...... would you pick up a piece of cord or go next to a 120 mortar round. that is just laying on the ground and looks like something you might want to pick up or use for later.......NO....


SUPPORT YOUR FRICKEN TROOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I AGREE....

YOU SEE, THE MEDIA PORTRAYS SOMETHING TO CAUSE SENSATIONALISM....


OUR SOLDIERS ARE NOT ORDERED TO DO SOMETHING AGAINST WHAT IS RIGHT...

PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE IEDs, AND EFPs WORKS TO THEN DRAW THEIR CONCLUSIONS.

IF YOU HAVE A PIECE OF CABLE LAYING IN THE GROUND....ONLY A PERSON WHO KNOWS THAT IS ATTACHED TO A BOMB WILL COME CLOSE, PICK THE WIRE TO ENSURE HAS NOT BROKEN, FOLLOWS THE CABLE TO THE DEVICE, INSPECT THE ATTACHMENT TO THE DEVICE...THEN CHECK THE TRANSMITTER, ENSURE THE BATTERY IS GOOD..THEN LEAVE.

CAN ANYONE HERE TELL ME THAT THERE IS NO ONE IN IRAQ THAT DOESN'T KNOW WHAT A CABLE IN THE GROUND IS FOR?

NOT ONLY THAT, A PERSON CLOSE, (WITHIN 200 METERS) IS MOST LIKELY A SPOTTER..A PERSON WHO WILL SPOT THE CONVOY, DETERMINE THE SPEED, DETERMINE WHEN IT WILL BE AT THE INTENDED BLAST AREA, THEN PRESS THE *SEND* BUTTON ON THEIR CELL PHONE...THEN BUM! HERE IS MY HUMVEE IN PIECES WITH MY FIVE MEN IN PIECES AS WELL....

IS THAT WHAT WE WANT TO HAPPEN? HELL NO. I WILL BE THE FIRST ONE PRESSING THE TRIGGER...

IF ANYONE HAS A QUESTION....FEEL FREE TO PM ME....

MTB71

[MettleOfMan]

Honestly I don't think anyone here is questioning the engagement of a target that is clearly hostile or has hostile intentions. That isn't the context of this discussion at all. What is being portrayed, true or not, by the media is that an individual can be engaged for picking up anything that was dropped from that ammo can that was provided to the troops. They will not reveal what sort of items are in the ammo can but I'm pretty sure you can't put too many mortar rounds in there. So yes I completely agree that targets assessed as being enemy in nature should be engaged, period. Everything that you have listed as evidence of these individuals being combatant I think is accurate but that is not the same evidence as what is being portrayed in the media. They are giving the impression that a person could be picking up nothing more than a fired rifle casing and be condemned for it.

[Aequitas]

Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed. Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."
"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.
Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.
The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.
"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.
Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.
The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.
The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.
"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."
The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.
Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.
The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.
The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.
They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.

This is all BS