Hamas Children show has puppet stab Pres Bush

[Integrity]

http://img.video.msn.com/video/i/src/MSNBC.gif

Hamas puppet 'stabs' Bush
April 1: A new Hamas children's show takes the spreading of anti-American sentiment to the edge. NBC's Martin Fletcher reports from Tel Aviv. (more) (http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-us&vid=c0c9c20e-87b6-4117-a7d0-7a69fc78883b&playlist=videoByTag:tag:most%20watched%20autos:ns: MSNVideo_Top_Cat:mk:us:vs:0&from=MSNHP&tab=s1189554878403&GT1=28114#)

Amazing how much hate they have, to even poison thier own children.

[LongShot]

Kind of like the USAMA toilet paper and the Saddam dart boards and "Terrorist Hunting Permits" we have here in the US....ya those are OK but lets not stab an effigy of a US president.

Hello Pot? Yes Kettle.....you do know we are both black right?

[cbailey_369]

Longshot you couldn't be more on point with that. While it's shocking to see a Hamas thing like that for their kids, we feed our own kids the same kind of stuff all the time.

[removed account per user]

Hamas gets Air America? :rofl:

Funny how our enemies can sound so much like the far left when they let their hatred of Bush go wild.

[removed account per user]

http://img.video.msn.com/video/i/src/MSNBC.gif

Hamas puppet 'stabs' Bush
April 1: A new Hamas children's show takes the spreading of anti-American sentiment to the edge. NBC's Martin Fletcher reports from Tel Aviv. (more) (http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-us&vid=c0c9c20e-87b6-4117-a7d0-7a69fc78883b&playlist=videoByTag:tag:most%20watched%20autos:ns: MSNVideo_Top_Cat:mk:us:vs:0&from=MSNHP&tab=s1189554878403&GT1=28114#)

Amazing how much hate they have, to even poison thier own children.

LINK DOES NOT WORK...


Try this :
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=15611

[removed account per user]

"You are a criminal, Bush, a despicable man. You made me an orphan. You deprived me of everything," said the hand-held puppet, representing a child and accusing the U.S. president of killing his family.




Substitute the word "HAND-HELD PUPPET" for "CODE PINK" sound familiar? :devil:

[removed account per user]

According to the far left, Israel and Hamas are morally equivalent. Does anyone still buy that?

[Grizzly Bear]

Anyone have a picture of that puppet?? I am going to manufacture arrow targets in red white and blue in the puppet likeness, sure they will be a hit here!

[removed account per user]

Longshot you couldn't be more on point with that. While it's shocking to see a Hamas thing like that for their kids, we feed our own kids the same kind of stuff all the time.

See? Liberals always excuse the terrible behavior of our enemies. The "we are just like Hamas" meme took about 5 seconds for the liberals to pick up.

If a Jihadist decapitated a civilian, a liberal would surely say "oh well, the CIA water-boards".

[removed account per user]

Kind of like the USAMA toilet paper and the Saddam dart boards and "Terrorist Hunting Permits" we have here in the US....ya those are OK but lets not stab an effigy of a US president.

Hello Pot? Yes Kettle.....you do know we are both black right?

Instead of making excuses for the behavior of Hamas, you should condemn it... :wave:

Trying to downplay this as "just stabbing an effigy" shows just how far liberals will go to cover up the mis-deeds of organizations like Hamas.

Don't you realize? This kind of indoctrination in children using a tv show is fascist, and will only serve to make these kids ripe to become suicide bombers.

Liberalism tolerates hate when it is aimed at America or Israel.

[williambedloe]

Kind of like the USAMA toilet paper and the Saddam dart boards and "Terrorist Hunting Permits" we have here in the US....ya those are OK but lets not stab an effigy of a US president.

Hello Pot? Yes Kettle.....you do know we are both black right?

LS - are you equating the President of the United States with Osama bin Laden? Bin Laden is a terrorist who is willing to kill millions, and he deserves to be in the same company as Bush?

That is a ridiculous assertion - sorry. That feeds from the ridiculous notion that Bush is a murderer of innocents. Utterly preposterous is what that is

[Midnight Tide]

Kind of like the USAMA toilet paper and the Saddam dart boards and "Terrorist Hunting Permits" we have here in the US....ya those are OK but lets not stab an effigy of a US president.

Hello Pot? Yes Kettle.....you do know we are both black right?



Longshot you couldn't be more on point with that. While it's shocking to see a Hamas thing like that for their kids, we feed our own kids the same kind of stuff all the time.


One man's terrorist, another's freedom fighter. It is all in the opinion of the individual. But the one thing most people forget, that is, everyone involved is a living, breathing person - who have their own goals and dreams (and that is what people should be doing, striving to make those dreams reality, but ya, we would rather blow each other up)

I must firmly note, that I do not agree with the acts of killing innocent people to get your point across. There isn't a winning side to this, just the loss of a lot of lives.


Its not hard to hold out your hand in peace, and it is not hard to shake it - but I guess thats another thing we have yet to learn.

[LongShot]

WB those people are terrorists in US eyes and to others they are hero's. The only reason people are crying here is because the puppet being stabbed was Bush. People over in Iraq see the US as having killed 1000x more innocents in this war than was killed on 911. And they are right the collateral damage of innocents in Iraq dwarfs 911 does it not?

It's all in how you perceive people as being good or bad....ya to the USA/Me Usama and Saddam are bad to others they are hero's.

I'm not equating anything they have a right as far as I'm concerned to stab or burn anything they want in effigy..we do so what's the problem WB?

LS - are you equating the President of the United States with Osama bin Laden? Bin Laden is a terrorist who is willing to kill millions, and he deserves to be in the same company as Bush?

That is a ridiculous assertion - sorry. That feeds from the ridiculous notion that Bush is a murderer of innocents. Utterly preposterous is what that is

[removed account per user]

One man's terrorist, another's freedom fighter. It is all in the opinion of the individual.

So, if someone straps TNT to a child and sends them into a Pizzaria to detonate, that may or may not be terrorism, depending on opinion?

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

[Midnight Tide]

So, if someone straps TNT to a child and sends them into a Pizzaria to detonate, that may or may not be terrorism, depending on opinion?
[/b]
Liberalism is a mental disorder.





Yes, some people will think that isn't terrorism. All you have to do is look at the news when the Israel's kill a known bomber maker (for example) - the people in Gaza don't see him as a terrorist.

As usual you take what I say out of context - but thats right, you see things as black and white, right or wrong (and with that type of thinking, this kind of crap is going to repeat itself over and over again).

[removed account per user]

WB those people are terrorists in US eyes and to others they are hero's.

That's right. Thats because Hamas and extreme liberals have a very warped sense of reality. The Nazis probably considered themselves as heroes, but objectively, you can't claim that Auschwitz was a heroic act.

Neither can you claim that brainwashing kids is heroic, or blowing up a child strapped with explosives in a school bus.

There are real differences between us and the terrorists. We do not strap explosives to our kids and use children as weapons, or as shields. You are a coward for protecting that evil behavior.

The only reason people are crying here is because the pupped being stabbed was Bush. People over in Iraq see the US as having killed 1000x more innocents in this war than was killed on 911.

Now you sound like a Hamas spokesperson. If 3000 people died on 9/11, you are accusing the US military of murdering 3 million innocent people. Listen to yourself, you are a mouthpiece for the enemy. You are the enemy.

You also impugn the character of the men and women who serve our military. The US military does not kill civilians intentionally. We go out of our way to avoid civilian death, even when it puts our men and women in danger.

We purchase far more expensive "laser guided" weapons so that we don't have to carpet bomb. We never target civilians intentionally, unlike Hamas ' attacks on Israel or Al Qaeda's attack on the WTC. You are literally spreading lies in favor of the enemy.

[removed account per user]

Yes, some people will think that isn't terrorism. All you have to do is look at the news when the Israel's kill a known bomber maker (for example) - the people in Gaza don't see him as a terrorist.

As usual you take what I say out of context - but thats right, you see things as black and white, right or wrong.



Unfortunately for you, terrorism is a real word with a real dictionary definition. You can't hide from that, and the opinion of a few idiots in Gaza does not change what the dictionary says.

TERRORISM - Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience (Title 22 of the United States Code, Section 2656f(d)).





Your example fails the definition, because a killing bomb maker is not politically motivated (its security motivated), perpetrated against noncombatant targets.

Killing kids in a school bus is premeditated, political, and they are noncombatants, etc.

So, again, trying to say the Jews are also terrorists isn't working out so good for you.

[Midnight Tide]

Unfortunately for you, terrorism is a real word with a real dictionary definition. You can't hide from that, and the opinion of a few idiots in Gaza does not change what the dictionary says.

TERRORISM - Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience (Title 22 of the United States Code, Section 2656f(d)).




The proper defination of terrorism does not matter, and yes, you are correct, what they are doing is a terrorist act.

What I am trying to say is that does not matter, the people of Palestine do not see it as such - and unless you profess to wiping them off the face of the earth, then you have to start to look at their side of thinking and try to find some common ground.


edit - I do not see the Israel people as terrorists, they are just responding to heinous acts.

[LongShot]

Your all caught up in schematics Warka you puppet. Well maybe not 3 million but over 100000 easily.

75% of this planet thinks GWB is a terrorist

Must be nice that we are the only country in the world without flaws.

Being a boot licking US wonk is also a disease.

[removed account per user]

The proper defination of terrorism does not matter, and yes, you are correct, what they are doing is a terrorist act.

What I am trying to say is that does not matter, the people of Palestine do not see it as such - and unless you profess to wiping them off the face of the earth, then you have to start to look at their side of thinking and try to find some common ground.


edit - I do not see the Israel people as terrorists, they are just responding to heinous acts.

If the proper definition of terrorism doesn't matter, then you are a forum terrorist, because I say so. :bandit:

:giggle:

I don't find common ground with Nazis. I don't find common ground with them at all. That's what Nevil Chamberlain did. I don't need to try to find common ground with people who strap TNT to children either.

Coddling terror only emboldens the terrorists.

[removed account per user]

Your all caught up in schematics Warka you puppet. Well maybe not 3 million but over 100000 easily.

75% of this planet thinks GWB is a terrorist

Must be nice that we are the only country in the world without flaws.

Being a boot licking US wonk is also a disease.

Your hatred of the military and America is forever enshrined in the replies to this topic.

[LongShot]

GWB is that you? Oh drats can't be those words have more than 3 syllables.


Unfortunately for you, terrorism is a real word with a real dictionary definition. You can't hide from that, and the opinion of a few idiots in Gaza does not change what the dictionary says.

TERRORISM - Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience (Title 22 of the United States Code, Section 2656f(d)).





Your example fails the definition, because a killing bomb maker is not politically motivated (its security motivated), perpetrated against noncombatant targets.

Killing kids in a school bus is premeditated, political, and they are noncombatants, etc.

So, again, trying to say the Jews are also terrorists isn't working out so good for you.

[Midnight Tide]

If the proper definition of terrorism doesn't matter, then you are a forum terrorist, because I say so. :bandit:

:giggle:

I don't find common ground with Nazis. I don't find common ground with them at all. That's what Nevil Chamberlain did. I don't need to try to find common ground with people who strap TNT to children either.

Coddling terror only emboldens the terrorists.


So I am interested in knowing what your solution to all this is? Just blow em all up? Who are you going to target - they are not all terrorists.

and you appear to be some redneck who will agree with anything that the government spoon feeds him - cause I say so...:rofl: (had to throw that in, and can you not have a conversation without throwing in an insult?)

I am interested in hearing the answer to this - what is your solution?

[LongShot]

Your hatred of the military and America is forever enshrined in the replies to this topic.


Nice try.....oh ya I remember....if I don't agree with everything the US says is the truth I must hate the military and America. (---------typical WONK reply

You pathetic buffoon. That is the lamest bullsheite out there.

Oh and my feelings are soo hurt because a troll says so.

LOL tell this crap to your stupid friends simpleton.

[Midnight Tide]

Nice try.....oh ya I remember....if I don't agree with everything the US says is the truth I must hate the military and America.

You pathetic buffoon. That is the lamest bullsheite out there.

Oh and my feelings are soo hurt because a troll says so.

LOL tell this crap to your stupid friends simpleton.


LS, your about to join the ranks of us "evil" liberals (though I never thought of myself as a lib, but I am cause Warka says so)

[LongShot]

Yup I believe so.......also retired from the military but I must have retired because I hate them so much...

BTW everyone is a liberal here in the USA this Nov because there are only liberals running so Warka joins the ranks too he just don't see it that way because he is a "REAL American"......kinda like Hulk Hogan and the WWF is LMAO

[removed account per user]

So I am interested in knowing what your solution to all this is? Just blow em all up? Who are you going to target - they are not all terrorists.

Just blow 'em all up is what Iran and Hamas and Al Qaeda do. Not America, not Isreal. Though you obviously like to pretend otherwise.

If I were Israel, I would negotiate with an Islamic country to take in the haters and let as many of them as possible emmigrate.

Then, for those who stay, I would make them become Israeli citizens, like many modern, moderate Palestinians are.

Israel should also enact strict laws on enciting terrorism, and give harsh sentences to clerics and TV producers who create the hatred that leads to suicide bombing.

Those are just a few ideas.

[removed account per user]

Nice try.....oh ya I remember....if I don't agree with everything the US says is the truth I must hate the military and America. (---------typical WONK reply


You are the one who tried to say that the US military intentionally killed 3 million civilians in Iraq.

Those were your words. Why you posted them, I'll never know why... but they are absolutely your words.

[removed account per user]

Yup I believe so.......also retired from the military but I must have retired because I hate them so much...

Your such a bad liar.

And obviously someone who's never heard the term "death before dishonor"...

[removed account per user]

People over in Iraq see the US as having killed 1000x more innocents in this war than was killed on 911.


Here it is, in all its disgusting, twisted, America-hating glory.


And the liar is now saying he's from the military? Who's military? Hamas?

[Midnight Tide]

[/b]Just blow 'em all up is what Iran and Hamas and Al Qaeda do. Not America, not Isreal. Though you obviously like to pretend otherwise.

If I were Israel, I would negotiate with an Islamic country to take in the haters and let as many of them as possible emmigrate.

Then, for those who stay, I would make them become Israeli citizens, like many modern, moderate Palestinians are.

Israel should also enact strict laws on enciting terrorism, and give harsh sentences to clerics and TV producers who create the hatred that leads to suicide bombing.

Those are just a few ideas.

Wow, the states should enact on your suggestions....that would shut those pesky liberals up.....:rofl:

[removed account per user]

Wow, the states should enact on your suggestions....that would shut those pesky liberals up.....:rofl:

When liberals start using suicide bombs, absolutely...

[LongShot]

Ya whatever you say chimp.....dishonor where is that? Do you think everyone in the military can't think for themselves like yourself? LMAO

You haven't a clue....but you are a good little chimp here is a banana for ya.

Why don't you try getting back on topic instead of derailing the thread.

There will be another banana in it for ya if your good.

Sorry to hear that freedom of speech makes you mental but that is why humans evolved and well chimps just get bananas.

Your such a bad liar.

And obviously someone who's never heard the term "death before dishonor"...

[LongShot]

OK I'll fetch the real figures for you...of course it was not 3 million but since this is all your hanging your venom on I'll get some more accurate numbers for ya.

Here it is, in all its disgusting, twisted, America-hating glory.


And the liar is now saying he's from the military? Who's military? Hamas?

[LongShot]

An accurate count of Iraqi deaths has been difficult to obtain, but one respected group puts its rough estimate at closer to 50,000

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,219638,00.html

There ya go from Foxews and everything 50000 is a few more than were killed on 911.

But I'm sure no civilians have been killed in Iraq correct?

So my post that got your panties all in a twist was not 3 million but hey 50000 isn't that many.

Silly little chimp.

[removed account per user]

Ya whatever you say chimp.....dishonor where is that? Do you think everyone in the military can't think for themselves like yourself? LMAO

Sorry to hear that freedom of speech makes you mental but that is why humans evolved and well chimps just get bananas.

This is "thinking" ? This is "freedom" ? This is disgusting, slanderous, libelous, seditious... and no way did it come from American military personnel.

You are beyond dishonorable to make these assertions about our armed forces. Shame on you. And you are lying when you claim to be an American military retiree. No military retiree would betray his brothers in this low fashion.

People over in Iraq see the US as having killed 1000x more innocents in this war than was killed on 911. And they are right the collateral damage of innocents in Iraq dwarfs 911 does it not?

[removed account per user]

An accurate count of Iraqi deaths has been difficult to obtain, but one respected group puts its rough estimate at closer to 50,000

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,219638,00.html

There ya go from Foxews and everything 50000 is a few more than were killed on 911.

But I'm sure no civilians have been killed in Iraq correct?

So my post that got your panties all in a twist was not 3 million but hey 50000 isn't that many.

Silly little chimp.

I know that at least 50000 have died. You were the one claimin 3 million.

Also,

-the majority died from sectarian infighting, NOT AT THE HANDS OF AMERICAN TROOPS.

-the ones that do die from American forces are often terrorists or insurgents, they get lumped into "civilian" category because they are non-uniformed. This is unlike a hamas bomber who attacks a true civilian target, like a school bus.

-the troops do not INTENTIONALLY KILL THE INNOCENT. Unlike hamas and hezbollah, who do directly target women and children.


You are such a liar when you pretend that the troops are intentionally targeting civilian women and children. They aren't. And you are not retired military. No American military retiree would betray his brothers and sisters the way you have today on this forum.

[LongShot]

The 3 million was a fubar in typing your floating turd. I didn't say anything bad about our military.

Get back on topic and out of left field.

What I said was more innocent people have been killed in the Iraq war than on 911 and that is a fact 50,000 3 million is irrelevant. Somehow you have that tied to hating the military and somehow I was never in. Take a deep breath and look at the OT before your head explodes. BTW no one cares what your opinion of them is so get over yourself.......Your funny ;)

[williambedloe]

WB those people are terrorists in US eyes and to others they are hero's. The only reason people are crying here is because the puppet being stabbed was Bush. People over in Iraq see the US as having killed 1000x more innocents in this war than was killed on 911. And they are right the collateral damage of innocents in Iraq dwarfs 911 does it not?

It's all in how you perceive people as being good or bad....ya to the USA/Me Usama and Saddam are bad to others they are hero's.

I'm not equating anything they have a right as far as I'm concerned to stab or burn anything they want in effigy..we do so what's the problem WB?

By your logic, it would be okay for us to teach our children to practice killing Palestinians by stabbing and shooting them in effigy. We do not - they do, and those children grow up to murder innocents - and themselves.

Live and let live in this case means the exact opposite - someone will eventually die.

[removed account per user]

People over in Iraq see the US as having killed 1000x more innocents in this war than was killed on 911. And they are right the collateral damage of innocents in Iraq dwarfs 911 does it not?

The 3 million was a fubar in typing your floating turd. I didn't say anything bad about our military.

You seem to be playing fast and loose with the facts. You'd rather type that we killed 3 million innocent people, rather than be bothered to get your facts straight. Much like a 9/11 truther or Code Pinker.

You fail to stand up for our military. The ARE NOT just like Hamas. They don't give orders to kill innocent people, like you claim.

[LongShot]

I never said I condone the act.

[LongShot]

You seem to be playing fast and loose with the facts. You'd rather type that we killed 3 million innocent people, rather than be bothered to get your facts straight. Much like a 9/11 truther or Code Pinker.

You fail to stand up for our military. The ARE NOT just like Hamas. They don't give orders to kill innocent people, like you claim.

Fact is the amount is irrelevant to the topic at hand your the one all caught up in the 3 million. I didn't say anything bad about our military.....that's just you playing games.

Staying OT just isn't an option for you is it?

Straw man is that you?

[LongShot]

And chimp show me 1 single post that I said anything bad about our military. You can't and your a punk for even going there.

Put up or shut up on this one clown. I dare ya. 1796 posts so get lookin.

[removed account per user]

And chimp show me 1 single post that I said anything bad about our military. You can't and your a punk for even going there.

Put up or shut up on this one clown. I dare ya. 1796 posts so get lookin.

Yeah, you just threw that ID into the toilet when you decided to take the Hamas talking points off your fax machine and go to bat for them, explaining how they really aren't any worse than the Great Satan America, killing 1000x innocent people in Iraq.

Your words speak for themselves, and believe me, they will follow you.

People over in Iraq see the US as having killed 1000x more innocents in this war than was killed on 911. And they are right the collateral damage of innocents in Iraq dwarfs 911 does it not?

[LongShot]

That is a statement on how Iraqis see the US are you for real?

I'm done with you. That wasn't even a good try. What a punk LOL

[IraqiFreedom]

I am interested in hearing the answer to this - what is your solution?

You might suggest that diplomatic pressure be applied to Israel to come to some common ground. Maybe Israel should give in to pretty much all the demands of the Palestinians? Maybe other Arab countries should take in their Palestinian brothers?

Excuse me, Clinton Pressured Israel to give into pretty much all of Arafat's laundry list of demands, with the exception of giving up Jerusalem. Israel agreed. ARAFAT SAID NO! Additionally, every step that Israel takes to give these animals land, is just an excuse for the Palestinians to move their missiles closer.There is nothing more that can be negotiated. Arafat drew a line in the sand that said the elimination of Israel is the only satisfactory outcome.

Meanwhile the other Arabs have disdain for the Palestinians except to use them as political pawns.

So the answer is to kill those that continue to attack and kill Israelis. The answer is to take back the concessions made by Israel to push the missiles at least further away. And yes, if the aggression escalates, the unfortunate alternative is to carpet bomb the Palestinian areas just as was done to Germany.

I know that you don't like my answer. But for someone demanding answers, you provide none of your own except to allow the aggression against Israel to continue in order to protect the Aggressor. And, when parents tolerate their children being taught to hate in school, where suicide bombers are praised, yes they are responsible for the aggression, even if they do not carry arms themselves. To tolerating hate and aggression is to promote it!

[Midnight Tide]

I never professed to having any answers, but your lets kill em all approach is doomed to failure....and by saying that every individual involved is a human being somehow places me as a supportor of terrorism?

Where did I state that Israel shouldn't protect itself against terrorist attacks?

I am finding some of the members of this forum are close minded - with us or against us mentality. This kind of BS makes me almost wish that the dinar pumpers would come back....

[IraqiFreedom]

I never professed to having any answers, but your lets kill em all approach is doomed to failure....and by saying that every individual involved is a human being somehow places me as a supportor of terrorism?

Where did I state that Israel shouldn't protect itself against terrorist attacks?

I am finding some of the members of this forum are close minded - with us or against us mentality. This kind of BS makes me almost wish that the dinar pumpers would come back....Hitler was a human being as were all evil people by definition. So you are saying absolutely nothing! I know that Palestinians are human beings, but we must look at behaviors and act accordingly.

So you don't have any answers? Any suggestions? Why is a "lets kill em all approach is doomed to failure". It's worked before looking back at history. In fact the two biggest wars of our time were won with that approach, so your rhetoric is quite vapid.

I never accused you of being a terrorist. I never said that you indicated that Israel should not defend itself. I simply indicated that based on the history of negotiating with Palestinians, we find that Palestinians are only satisfied with the destruction of Israel and that Palestinians no longer have any credibility to negotiate. You cannot continue to negotiate with an entity who's actions have ben consistently disingenuous. My solution at this point is to retaliate with greater intensity.

I'm not sure what you mean by "with us or against us mentality". I frequently see a middle ground, I just don't see one in this case after years and years of historical precedent. I am certainly open to being wrong should you provide a persuasive argument for a different course of action.

[Integrity]

LINK DOES NOT WORK...


Try this :
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=15611


sorry about that. Not sure why it didn't however, it looks as though you've found it but for others here's another link that has more detail.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1729.htm

[Integrity]

Kind of like the USAMA toilet paper and the Saddam dart boards and "Terrorist Hunting Permits" we have here in the US....ya those are OK but lets not stab an effigy of a US president.

Hello Pot? Yes Kettle.....you do know we are both black right?


Longshot are you really that pathetically immature ? Tell me ONE just one time that Americans liberal /conservative or those who simply don't give a damn.. Have gone out of their way to produce a show geared toward young children having a child kill another human being and be praised ????

[Midnight Tide]

Hitler was a human being as were all evil people by definition. So you are saying absolutely nothing! I know that Palestinians are human beings, but we must look at behaviors and act accordingly.

So you don't have any answers? Any suggestions? Why is a "lets kill em all approach is doomed to failure". It's worked before looking back at history. In fact the two biggest wars of our time were won with that approach, so your rhetoric is quite vapid.

I never accused you of being a terrorist. I never said that you indicated that Israel should not defend itself. I simply indicated that based on the history of negotiating with Palestinians, we find that Palestinians are only satisfied with the destruction of Israel and that Palestinians no longer have any credibility to negotiate. You cannot continue to negotiate with an entity who's actions have ben consistently disingenuous. My solution at this point is to retaliate with greater intensity.

I'm not sure what you mean by "with us or against us mentality". I frequently see a middle ground, I just don't see one in this case after years and years of historical precedent. I am certainly open to being wrong should you provide a persuasive argument for a different course of action.

Ok, I mistook your view then. I am used to personal attacks by members of this forum for my views (as the with us against us mentality)

As to your carpet bomb approach, I say all that will do is make more enemies for the states. You can not possibly kill all the Palestines (and yes I understand that for many of those said people want to push the Israelis into the Mediterrian Sea) or extremeist muslims. That would be a rallying cry for said people - and there won't be enough anti-ballistic missles to protect the people of America.

My potential solution? First off, this entire mess is both sides profess to "rightful ownership" which is meaningless (the Israelis will state biblical evidence, the Palestines will state current history). Jews currently possess the land and it is highly unlikely that the Palestines will ever see the restorations of the land they see as their own - no matter what they do. (and I am impartial to this conflict, just trying to explain some of my thoughts - I am not for the Israelis or the Palestines)

So where does this lead us? The current approach is not working. As it is, as many Palestines see it, the only option they have is to lay down and die (and of course they arn't going to take this lightly) In this conflict there isn't going to be any winners, just people allowed to live and strive for their hopes and dreams.

So what I am proposing is this - the current generation(s) are lost. They have been brought up in hate, and it is unlikely that anyone can change their minds, there has been to much blood and tears shed.

What we need is for the United Nations to be brought in, be given real powers. Stop the needless violence, bring peace to the common person. Many of them live in tent cities, and don't have much to look forward to in life, and they are taught to look at the "evil Israelis" - that to is wrong.

Educate them, give them something to strive for in life...Benjamin Franklin said - "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which god has given them can not be enslaved."

(that is educated people will not accept the bs of the extremeists, and the conflict can end)

edit: and if some of this doesn't make sense, well, I never did say I was the smartest one of the bunch (yes, I opened myself yet again to a personal insult)

[IraqiFreedom]

Ok, I mistook your view then. I am used to personal attacks by members of this forum for my views (as the with us against us mentality)

As to your carpet bomb approach, I say all that will do is make more enemies for the states. You can not possibly kill all the Palestines (and yes I understand that for many of those said people want to push the Israelis into the Mediterrian Sea) or extremeist muslims. That would be a rallying cry for said people - and there won't be enough anti-ballistic missles to protect the people of America.

My potential solution? First off, this entire mess is both sides profess to "rightful ownership" which is meaningless (the Israelis will state biblical evidence, the Palestines will state current history). Jews currently possess the land and it is highly unlikely that the Palestines will ever see the restorations of the land they see as their own - no matter what they do. (and I am impartial to this conflict, just trying to explain some of my thoughts - I am not for the Israelis or the Palestines)

So where does this lead us? The current approach is not working. As it is, as many Palestines see it, the only option they have is to lay down and die (and of course they arn't going to take this lightly) In this conflict there isn't going to be any winners, just people allowed to live and strive for their hopes and dreams.

So what I am proposing is this - the current generation(s) are lost. They have been brought up in hate, and it is unlikely that anyone can change their minds, there has been to much blood and tears shed.

What we need is for the United Nations to be brought in, be given real powers. Stop the needless violence, bring peace to the common person. Many of them live in tent cities, and don't have much to look forward to in life, and they are taught to look at the "evil Israelis" - that to is wrong.

Educate them, give them something to strive for in life...Benjamin Franklin said - "A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which god has given them can not be enslaved."

(that is educated people will not accept the bs of the extremeists, and the conflict can end)

edit: and if some of this doesn't make sense, well, I never did say I was the smartest one of the bunch (yes, I opened myself yet again to a personal insult)

I thank you for your rational response and your good hearted thoughts. While I predominantly disagree, I respect that your intentions are good. I often respond with great emotion, but I try to direct my emotion at the topic and not the poster; certainly I have failed at times. Let's start with where we agree.

I am strongly in agreement with your thoughts about generational violence. It is the brainwashing of children in these societies that continues the cycle of violence. It's a similar cycle as that associated with child abuse. It is also about poverty, and see in these cultures extremes of wealth and poverty because most of these countries are ruled by dictators and have suffered generations of fighting; this is mostly their own doing even thought they would like to lay blame elsewhere, kinda like why we have a label on the top rung of a latter that says, "This is not a Step". So I would support educating the people, but I'm not sure how to make that happen without a 40 year takeover of a foreign country.

So maybe a working model in their own region? I think that Iraq will be successful and prosperous (hopefully not just a dream), and the success of an Arab country might serve as a model that others will follow. The Kurds have already succeeded. Hopefully the rest of Iraq will follow. So I think that Iraq is intended to be this model. Only time will tell whether we see success or failure.

The issue of land ownership is moot. The area has changed hands many times in its history, as have many other places. It is what it is right now and should not change. The issue is integrating the Palestinians into other existing nations (if they so choose) and, allowing a small Palestinian state in the territory currently ceded to them. If there was no hate, many Palestinians would be living in Israel in peace and economic prosperity. Unfortunately the path of war and hate has been chosen and there are terrible consequences.

I see that the UN has proven ineffective in that region, and most other places. Also any real capable UN force will be made up primarily of the US, which I think adds to the problem. Frankly, I think that US involvement has largely led to the degradation of peace by pressuring Israel to give up land for peace, which has not worked and, further, has given the enemies of Israel the perception that Israel can be destroyed through violence.

Should other countries become directly involved in a large way, at least publicly, Israel will have no choice but to use the nuclear option. That's why Iran is developing nukes today and why Israel recently destroyed a Syrian nuclear facility. Iran and Syria have increased the supply of more sophisticated weapons to Hamas and others in the region, which is forcing Israel to consider direct action against those states in defense of its people.

You are correct that if all let's loose, Israel cannot stop the incoming missiles, but the can massively destroy the suppliers in Iran and Syria. In reality, I'm sure that Israel could and would decimate these countries from nuclear submarines even if Israel itself was destroyed.

I believe that the rallying cry has already been sounded. Israel is not fighting the Palestinians as much as they are fighting a proxy war with Iran and Syria. This doesn't mean that Palestinians are not involved, but that their capabilities have escalated from outside resources and that the situation is fast becoming too dangerous for Israel to put up with much longer. I believe it's really only a question of who makes the first move within the next few years. The last mistake that Israel can make is to hesitate to act for fear of retaliation.

Israel is like a wounded animal with predators moving closer in for the kill.

I'm probably worn out for the life of this thread. Whew!

[LongShot]

My point was the hypocrisy of us here in the US doing what we do IE Usama toilet paper,terrorist hunting permits, hell some still burn crosses down south.....YET when an effigy of Bush is burned/stabbed in ANOTHER country somehow this is over the top bad. I never said I agreed with what they are doing but I do think they have a right to do it.....it's called freedom and guess what......what goes on in other countries isn't our business. Isn't freedom for everyone? I don't agree with abortion either but I don't think others should have to live by my views.

So as long as everyone on the planet acts like the US wants them to......that's freedom?

So do you believe in freedom or USA directed freedom?

Longshot are you really that pathetically immature ? Tell me ONE just one time that Americans liberal /conservative or those who simply don't give a damn.. Have gone out of their way to produce a show geared toward young children having a child kill another human being and be praised ????

[AZDinar]

I don't agree with abortion either but I don't think others should have to live by my views.

I don't believe in slavery, sexual mutilation of children, or toxic dumping into the environment, but I don't think others should have to live by my views.

NOT.

You, sir, have no convictions worth living by. You are a moral coward, and frankly, your comments in this thread disgust me. You are exactly what is wrong with this country. Had it been up to you and your ilk during WWII, Hitler would have succeeded in conquering Europe and incinerating every last Jew (and Christian who objected), and you would have stood by watching, saying, "I don't think others should have to live by my views".

Pathetic.

[Garf]

Is it time for a group hug ???

[Midnight Tide]

I want a hug from your avatar Garf...lol

[OldeSarge]

Hamas and Isreal aren't even a blip on the Bushies radar. What if Dick had had a vision of a functioning Arab democracy alongside Israel? What If we had gone to Gaza instead of Baghdad? Surely we could have put down the violence in that small area of the world. Just think, Dick could have spanked Yassir and Ehud and set up a puppet parliament in Palestine. I bet it could have been accomplished within his six-month time frame for war.

Oh, yeah, there's no oil profits to be made in Palestine. He couldn't have funneled tens of billions of dollars to his buddies at Halliburton and KBR.

Just think about it. Bush really would have had a lasting legacy of peace and hope in the Middle East. He would have removed the source of all unrest between Arabs and Jews. Palestine could have a burgeoning economy by now and the spill-over effect would have been enormous. Lebanon would finally be rid of Hezbollah. Syria would be behaving itself and Sadam would likely have been overthrown from within. Heck, Saudi Arabia might even have elected its first real parliament. Now that would have been a legacy to be proud of.

In stead, Bush leaves the U.S. mired up to its neck in Iraq with no foreseeable end to it...morally obliged to fix it, because we broke it (at least Powell told him the truth when no one else did). The national debt, held by all the unfriendlies in the world, is soaring through the roof. 10+ billion dollars a week of borrowed tax payer money pours into the bottomless pit of Iraq. Because of the the Iraqi boondoggle, oil has been speculated up to $100+ a barrel and that is stressing the U.S economy to the breaking point. The U.S. dollar is worth less than the Canadian dollar for the first time in history.

What a wonderful legacy! Yes, Dubya will be rembered all right. He'll be remembered as the president that finally destroyed the last great hope of mankind.

[NotAPHD]

See? Liberals always excuse the terrible behavior of our enemies. The "we are just like Hamas" meme took about 5 seconds for the liberals to pick up.

If a Jihadist decapitated a civilian, a liberal would surely say "oh well, the CIA water-boards".


Wow, you really hate people don't you.

[IMMensaMind]

One man's terrorist, another's freedom fighter. It is all in the opinion of the individual.

As if all opinions are equal. They're not, Tide. So: what it is really all about is having the wisdom to conclude which opinion is more valid. Does any good American want a leader without those kinds of skills? I sure as hell don't.

Moral Relativism FTL.

But the one thing most people forget, that is, everyone involved is a living, breathing person

How does one forget that? Even better, what type of diminutive intellect is prompted to remind us?



- who have their own goals and dreams (and that is what people should be doing, striving to make those dreams reality, but ya, we would rather blow each other up)

I'll focus on eradicating the instigator, instead of morally equating the response to the crime, rather than the crime itself. Save your "we caused it by being in the Middle East" rant in reply btw: I've crushed that reanimated argument more times than I can count.

You callously dismiss the importance of determining who's right, and head right to the horror of the action that takes place in the process of meting punishment. That is intellectual sophistry at its highest.

By your ruler, the judge that throws a criminal in jail for life is a horrible person.

I must firmly note, that I do not agree with the acts of killing innocent people to get your point across. There isn't a winning side to this, just the loss of a lot of lives.

You must firmly note, eh? Good clarification. I wasn't sure if you thought that someone who destroys innocent life should actually be killed themselves. Ya know, with something like...I dunno..a war or something.


Its not hard to hold out your hand in peace, and it is not hard to shake it - but I guess thats another thing we have yet to learn.

Haha - You're so liberal that you Sharpie out the name of your deodorant, and rename it Left Guard.

:rofl: :puke:

BTW: holding out your hand in peace - tried myriad times by "enlightened" types throughout history (Neville Chamberlain being a notable example), have suffered this result:

[/URL]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cid85WBkvc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dG7ZFhZzKM)
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dG7ZFhZzKM

[Crow]

I never professed to having any answers, but your lets kill em all approach is doomed to failure....and by saying that every individual involved is a human being somehow places me as a supportor of terrorism?

Where did I state that Israel shouldn't protect itself against terrorist attacks?

I am finding some of the members of this forum are close minded - with us or against us mentality. This kind of BS makes me almost wish that the dinar pumpers would come back....
It was nice, none of this political talk, just we will be rich next week! Oh, those were the good old days!:)

[Crow]

As if all opinions are equal. They're not, Tide. So: what it is really all about is having the wisdom to conclude which opinion is more valid. Does any good American want a leader without those kinds of skills? I sure as hell don't.

Moral Relativism FTL.



How does one forget that? Even better, what type of diminutive intellect is prompted to remind us?





I'll focus on eradicating the instigator, instead of morally equating the response to the crime, rather than the crime itself. Save your "we caused it by being in the Middle East" rant in reply btw: I've crushed that reanimated argument more times than I can count.

You callously dismiss the importance of determining who's right, and head right to the horror of the action that takes place in the process of meting punishment. That is intellectual sophistry at its highest.

By your ruler, the judge that throws a criminal in jail for life is a horrible person.



You must firmly note, eh? Good clarification. I wasn't sure if you thought that someone who destroys innocent life should actually be killed themselves. Ya know, with something like...I dunno..a war or something.



Haha - You're so liberal that you Sharpie out the name of your deodorant, and rename it Left Guard.

:rofl: :puke:

BTW: holding out your hand in peace - tried myriad times by "enlightened" types throughout history (Neville Chamberlain being a notable example), have suffered this result:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cid85WBkvc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dG7ZFhZzKM

That post almost makes me want to try crack!:eek:

[Integrity]

My point was the hypocrisy of us here in the US doing what we do IE Usama toilet paper,terrorist hunting permits, hell some still burn crosses down south.....YET when an effigy of Bush is burned/stabbed in ANOTHER country somehow this is over the top bad. I never said I agreed with what they are doing but I do think they have a right to do it.....it's called freedom and guess what......what goes on in other countries isn't our business. Isn't freedom for everyone? I don't agree with abortion either but I don't think others should have to live by my views.

So as long as everyone on the planet acts like the US wants them to......that's freedom?

So do you believe in freedom or USA directed freedom?


Defining freedom can be compared to defining truth. The dictator,king,president, "ruler' of a nation can define "freedom" with a determined measure. Stalin, Mao, Ganges Kahn, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Caesar, Hitler to name a few, all had their "Freedom" to control others. The determined measure was who's freedoms were being exploited at who's expense. Obviously. the old argument comes into play. Do I have the freedom to yell fire in the middle a movie theater. Is this what you are referring too? when you ask. if I believe in freedom or USA directed freedom?

Longshot, understand the meaning of your own words when you joke with the black kettle analogy. It's a universal truth (freedom) for enemies to trash each other. it's not a universal freedom to use children to fight for adults. That is the cowardly way.

And the cowards of this world are a dime a dozen. A genuine coward does not have the fortitude to stand on his own & fight for another. You say "what goes on in other countries are not our business". why not bring that kind of thinking into your own neighborhood, city, state? or our you the passive aggressive type? This country was founded on principles that go beyond personal boundaries.

Lets just cut to the chase with this okay. If America really wanted to we could simply disseminate all of our enemies with a dirty bomb. Simply annihilate anyone in our way, we are without question 2nd to none in strength and opportunity. Yet, we don't and why in the hell do you think we don't ?? PEER PRESSURE??? The global community would frown upon us, call us names, boycott our food? technology? our money??? give me a break, talk about attacking the hands that keep them feed. The reason why we don't Longshot is because of "AMERICAS DIRECTED FREEDOM" is not as you have implied about just America it is about global freedom. We are interested in helping the oppressed, we continue to help nations that continually bring harm to our country. Just because certain rulers our currently in a position does not necessarily reflect the citizens of that country. Current example Saddam vs the Kurds, Just as I have met some very proud Persians who are extremly proud (rightfully so) of King Xerxes, they desire to go back to how things were before being forced to become Muslim.

You and I can agree to disagree, but in this mans humble opinion I think you really need to revaluate your own personal convictions and take a stand that is honorable.

[Midnight Tide]

As if all opinions are equal. They're not, Tide. So: what it is really all about is having the wisdom to conclude which opinion is more valid. Does any good American want a leader without those kinds of skills? I sure as hell don't.

Moral Relativism FTL.



How does one forget that? Even better, what type of diminutive intellect is prompted to remind us?





I'll focus on eradicating the instigator, instead of morally equating the response to the crime, rather than the crime itself. Save your "we caused it by being in the Middle East" rant in reply btw: I've crushed that reanimated argument more times than I can count.

You callously dismiss the importance of determining who's right, and head right to the horror of the action that takes place in the process of meting punishment. That is intellectual sophistry at its highest.

By your ruler, the judge that throws a criminal in jail for life is a horrible person.



You must firmly note, eh? Good clarification. I wasn't sure if you thought that someone who destroys innocent life should actually be killed themselves. Ya know, with something like...I dunno..a war or something.



Haha - You're so liberal that you Sharpie out the name of your deodorant, and rename it Left Guard.

:rofl: :puke:

BTW: holding out your hand in peace - tried myriad times by "enlightened" types throughout history (Neville Chamberlain being a notable example), have suffered this result:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cid85WBkvc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dG7ZFhZzKM


You keyboard commandos make me want to crack up sometimes.

So keep on fighting on who is right, this conflict will go on forever. But I forgot, American rednecks like yourself get to determine what is right....:rofl: (guess thats why world opinion of America is at an all time low) (and you can save the like we care, why doesn't anyone else do something blah blah blah - I already said it for you)

edit: by the way, I think everyone knows you think I am a liberal, so enough of the childish insults, if you want to debate the subject, I am willing, but if your going to base your arguments on how stupid you think I am, not going to bother to respond to your delusions of American grandeur.

[IMMensaMind]

You keyboard commandos make me want to crack up sometimes.

So keep on fighting on who is right, this conflict will go on forever. But I forgot, American rednecks like yourself get to determine what is right....:rofl: (guess thats why world opinion of America is at an all time low) (and you can save the like we care, why doesn't anyone else do something blah blah blah - I already said it for you)

edit: by the way, I think everyone knows you think I am a liberal, so enough of the childish insults, if you want to debate the subject, I am willing, but if your going to base your arguments on how stupid you think I am, not going to bother to respond to your delusions of American grandeur.

1) I find it odd that the word which describes your political ideology is considered by you to be an insult. Replace the word 'liberal' in a sentence with the word 'conservative', and you end up being complimentary. Your reaction shouldn't tell you that your description is an insult; what it should do is tell you that it's incorrect, and that is manifesting itself subconsciously as shame.

2) I'm far from a redneck. I am not against insults, Tide, if they're clever, or have a grain of truth. Liberal isn't an insult - only liberals have made it so, likely from subconscious conflict with reason. Redneck, however, is a different story. Remember also, if you will, that the term "keyboard commando" was thrown about by you earlier. It's hard having credibility regarding thrown insults if you yourself throw insults.

3) Your response wasn't substantive. There is nothing but machinated offense to a non-existent insult, amongst quite a few cogent points. Did you respond to any of those points?

4) Conflicts have outcomes. Can you remember any that haven't? You know what else an outcome? Appeasement. It's not a good outcome. Life is full of examples of that; you should have learned that valuable lesson by now. Appeasement delays the inevitable, and heightens the damage when it arrives.

5) Delusions of American grandeur? What would make you think that those Americans who consider the US grand are delusional?

[LongShot]

What's patheticis your attempt at a post. Hey brainbucket!!! abortion is legal all that you listed isn't......nice try. Gee let me get sucked into this one.

I don't believe in slavery, sexual mutilation of children, or toxic dumping into the environment, but I don't think others should have to live by my views.

NOT.

You, sir, have no convictions worth living by. You are a moral coward, and frankly, your comments in this thread disgust me. You are exactly what is wrong with this country. Had it been up to you and your ilk during WWII, Hitler would have succeeded in conquering Europe and incinerating every last Jew (and Christian who objected), and you would have stood by watching, saying, "I don't think others should have to live by my views".

Pathetic.

[Crow]

1) I find it odd that the word which describes your political ideology is considered by you to be an insult. Replace the word 'liberal' in a sentence with the word 'conservative', and you end up being complimentary. Your reaction shouldn't tell you that your description is an insult; what it should do is tell you that it's incorrect, and that is manifesting itself subconsciously as shame.

2) I'm far from a redneck. I am not against insults, Tide, if they're clever, or have a grain of truth. Liberal isn't an insult - only liberals have made it so, likely from subconscious conflict with reason. Redneck, however, is a different story. Remember also, if you will, that the term "keyboard commando" was thrown about by you earlier. It's hard having credibility regarding thrown insults if you yourself throw insults.

3) Your response wasn't substantive. There is nothing but machinated offense to a non-existent insult, amongst quite a few cogent points. Did you respond to any of those points?

4) Conflicts have outcomes. Can you remember any that haven't? You know what else an outcome? Appeasement. It's not a good outcome. Life is full of examples of that; you should have learned that valuable lesson by now. Appeasement delays the inevitable, and heightens the damage when it arrives.

5) Delusions of American grandeur? What would make you think that those Americans who consider the US grand are delusional?
OK, where is the pipe, I need something to kill the pain!:lmao: Just joking! Drugs are never the answer!:mad: Neither is this!:rolleyes:

[BILLYG]

After reading this thread for 3+ pages one thing is quite apparent, Long Shot is still sore about his beloved Patriots' CHOKE JOB!!! J/k LS but seriously, lighten up on the invectives...

[IMMensaMind]

OK, where is the pipe, I need something to kill the pain!:lmao: Just joking! Drugs are never the answer!:mad: Neither is this!:rolleyes:

Wow Crow. You have a gift for using a whole lot of words to say nothing. If you have an objection or a rebuttal to something I've said, spit it out. Your response was about as juvenile as those bumper stickers I see which say "war is not the answer!". :rolleyes:

[MR32SLIM]

There's always a perceived threat, whether it be terrorism or communism or a lack of oil or whatever else. Take a look at what's happened to the US since 9/11. We haven't been attacked again, but the economy is in a slump, the nation is as divided as it's ever been, and we've gotten ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place in Iraq and even Afghanistan.

How can anyone look at America in its current state compared to where it was eight years ago and say that the terrorists aren't winning? They don't need to attack us again...if anything that will just increase the solidarity in the US. The damage has already been done, and we have only ourselves to blame.

And as for the waterboarding/beheading analogy used earlier, yeah, both are gruesome, inhumane ways to treat a prisoner, and both the US and the jihadists are guilty of using them. If the US didn't use torture, it could claim the moral high ground, but that sort of went out the window a few years ago.

[IraqiFreedom]

There's always a perceived threat, whether it be terrorism or communism or a lack of oil or whatever else. Take a look at what's happened to the US since 9/11. We haven't been attacked again, but the economy is in a slump, the nation is as divided as it's ever been, and we've gotten ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place in Iraq and even Afghanistan.
...
You make some big assumptions by asserting that the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan is responsible for the current economic situation in the US. The problems that we face economically are largely due to 40+ years of expanding government and the associated national debt that has devalued the dollar tremendously. There are many other reasons, but the current war has little to do with the problem.

Divisions in the US may be more visible as a result of the war, but they extend well beyond the war.

I don't believe that we are "stuck between a rock and a hard place in Iraq and even Afghanistan". I guess that just illustrates some differences in thought, but Iraq is looking more likely to be a success each day. The US gave Iraqis an opportunity to restructure their future and, over the past year or so, Iraqis have banded together to make that happen. Our presence only provides an opportunity, and we cannot solve their problems. They can and seem to be doing just that!

[LakewayDaze!]

Your all caught up in schematics Warka you puppet. Well maybe not 3 million but over 100000 easily.

75% of this planet thinks GWB is a terrorist

Must be nice that we are the only country in the world without flaws.

Being a boot licking US wonk is also a disease.

Would someone step on the fellas neck already!! :party:

[LakewayDaze!]

There's always a perceived threat, whether it be terrorism or communism or a lack of oil or whatever else. Take a look at what's happened to the US since 9/11. We haven't been attacked again, but the economy is in a slump, the nation is as divided as it's ever been, and we've gotten ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place in Iraq and even Afghanistan.

How can anyone look at America in its current state compared to where it was eight years ago and say that the terrorists aren't winning? They don't need to attack us again...if anything that will just increase the solidarity in the US. The damage has already been done, and we have only ourselves to blame.

And as for the waterboarding/beheading analogy used earlier, yeah, both are gruesome, inhumane ways to treat a prisoner, and both the US and the jihadists are guilty of using them. If the US didn't use torture, it could claim the moral high ground, but that sort of went out the window a few years ago.



Who is being tortured by American soldiers?

Get your facts straight fella. Surely your not speaking of Abu Ghraib or whatever it is.....you are going to compare beheading people to playing Pyramid with them?? Good God can we get you a ticket to ANYWHERE outside the US please?? :party:

[LongShot]

You could try.......LMAO

Would someone step on the fellas neck already!! :party:

[OldeSarge]

You make some big assumptions by asserting that the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan is responsible for the current economic situation in the US. The problems that we face economically are largely due to 40+ years of expanding government and the associated national debt that has devalued the dollar tremendously. There are many other reasons, but the current war has little to do with the problem.

Divisions in the US may be more visible as a result of the war, but they extend well beyond the war.

I don't believe that we are "stuck between a rock and a hard place in Iraq and even Afghanistan". I guess that just illustrates some differences in thought, but Iraq is looking more likely to be a success each day. The US gave Iraqis an opportunity to restructure their future and, over the past year or so, Iraqis have banded together to make that happen. Our presence only provides an opportunity, and we cannot solve their problems. They can and seem to be doing just that!

I don't know what planet you have been on but, back here on Earth in the good old US of A, the national debt that is sinking our ship of state has largely been amassed under W and Dick and is directly attributable to the war in Iraq.

By the end of Clinton's second term he and congress had nearly wiped out the debt amassed under Ronnie's escalated cold war with the former USSR. He nearly destroyed our economy destroying theirs with the arms race. Fortunately, Star Wars wasn't a real war and did not come anywhere near the Trillion + dollars this one will eventually cost the American people nor the thousands of lives that it has destroyed in the process.

I only wish there were a way to exile this entire administration to Iraq and leave them to their democracy in the heart of the Arab middle east. Thanks to W and Dick, we are beholden to China for crying out loud. The war debt and the skyrocketing price of oil is compounding the impact of the creative mortgages bundled and sold as securities to the enemies of democracy.